I still have a copy or two of the RevRad newsletter! And distinctly remember conferences where Diet Coke was banned... but seriously, obesity is a health issue not a moral issue. Claiming it as a political identity is up there with asexuality. I've been thin, I've been fat, and that's between me and my knees.
On a diffetent note: the whole body positivity movement got so bastardized. I completely agree you both. What I think is the most messed up part, is all the false health claims. Like, it’s everybodies choice if they want to be overweight, but I absolutely despise the lies. I think it’s disgraceful that we are lying to women in the name of being kind to them. It is a health risk. And I should mention that I also despise diet culture, and all those insane diet hacks and all that crap that is just as harmful to women. What we should have is proper health and nutrition education and information, and everybody can decide themselves what do they want to do with it. I find it patronising, these kind lies. Beauty and weight has nothing to do with each other, but health and weight does. And it should be everybodies own choice to make an INFORMED decision on this.
There are parts of the body positivity movement that I love though, all those “instagram is not real” type of stuff, campaigning to show women that not having a flat belly is normal, that everybody has curves when they are sitting, that women use lighting and editing apps to look “perfect” etc, or other stuff, like educating that porn is not real, that diffetent labias are normal etc.
Wonderful podcast, as usual. The zines I remember are Sappho (70s), and Lysistrata (late70s/80s) Sappho came through the post in a plain brown wrapper, and the other one was available from the alternative bookshop and greengrocers in Durham, where I'd go to get Spare Rib, badges and soil covered potatoes. My word, those were the days!
I found myself somewhat guiltily watching 'I kissed A girl', with some trepidation ( hardly surprising, given the ten years we've just survived). It was, much to my surprise, completely engaging, and left me more hopeful for our young sisters than I have felt for some time. I loved the conversations about the word lesbian, and it was warming to see the love and support from the families (which you haven't seen yet, so I'll say no more). I'd been put off a bit by the fuss around Danni Minogue, tearfully 'coming out' as 'Queer in a weird way', which she later clarified as meaning she was straight! But, I'm so glad I persisted. It's fun, and sweet and encouraging.
Another fun thing about the disability rights movement is it's being co-opted by trans activists claiming that being trans is a form of disability. I suppose one can render oneself disabled by pursuing dangerous unnecessary medical treatments that damage the body. In the coming years, we're probably going to have an avalanche of disability claims relating to Lupron-induced osteoporosis. But merely claiming a novel set of pronouns doesn't render one disabled, and it's offensive to suggest otherwise. Maybe if one has severe gender dysphoria, it could be considered a disability, but that seems to be rare, or at least not nearly as common as trans-as-social-contagion.
I've also been increasingly coming across able-bodied people claiming they're disabled because of minor, normal variations in ability. Variations that don't prevent them from working, that don't require accommodations, that don't prevent them from accessing businesses and public places, that don't prevent them from driving or accessing public transit, etc. I guess they want to feel special, so they grab onto the label. This glib minimization of what it actually is to be disabled is harmful. The result is disabled people don't get what we need when resources are already extremely limited. If everyone is disabled, no one is, and we're back to square one.
This disability thing made me remember something. I’m from Hungary, and Eastern Europe is very big on agriculture, so much so, that they consider lactose intolerance a disability. I’m lactose intolerant, and hence I was eligible to claim tax relief for it :D And when I was under 18, I could use free / 90% discounted public transport :D However, Hungary is also not very PC, so they don’t call this disability, they use a word in hungarian that is best translated as “retarded”. I still to this day have a doctors note that confirms that I indeed do have lactose intolerance, and it states “the retarded state is permanent” 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 I had a plastic card issued by the govt with this :D
In 1996, I marched in Sydney's Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras and it was one of the happiest days of my life. It was still joyfully OK to be lesbian then 😊. In fact, it seemed like the whole of Sydney was lesbian and gay that day. We have pictures.
In 1998, my partner and I marched in Melbourne's much smaller Pride March when it was still unfetteredly OK to be lesbian.. I want to say that, whilst being lesbian has always been a precious, mostly private part of my life, it is not the only thing I'm proud of. It's not my whole identity 🤗
Another action-packed episode! Loved getting the inside track on Kathleen’s reference to “nagging and flagging” in that utterly brilliant and hilarious Times article—had to go back and read it a third time and laughed out loud all over again.
The academic article of the week pick was once again stellar. That this journal, “ Fat Studies, An Interdisciplinary Journal of Body Weight and Society” exists at all speaks volumes on its own about the sorry state of our times. That the abstract closes with a call “to protect the future of fatness,” without any apparent discussion of the impact of obesity on health, strikes me as completely in line with the anti-science, grievance-based, identity belief systems that also give us “gender affirming care.”
In this bizarro world in which we find ourselves, The Lesbian Podcast is an oasis of delight. Thank you both!
I can confirm the gay men went wild for Dannii last year (she would be the primary reason I’d go on the show!). I’ve really enjoyed the show this year and the lesbians definitely did a better job that gay men last year who were spent a lot of time assigning top or bottom roles to the group 🤣
In the Eighties I was a huge fan of alternative feminist cartoons (I'm dyslexic, I like pictures, not words) I still have a couple of copies of SourCream somewhere. My favourite remains Jo Nesbitt 'One day men will want your body for an exquisite plaything'
I remember the evolutionary scientist Stephen Jay Gould and his (unamed!) wife discussing the branding of intimate deodorants - working titles: FannyFresh and CockSure
I'm off to waste my life watching 'I kissed a Girl'
PS I treasure how well-referenced you podcasts are.
I don't like masc/fem because they're the trans-spectrum version of butch/femme and I think it encourages you to think of it as a "gender" and on the continuum to "transmasc", which seems to be by far the most common use of "masc" (but alright that all started with the butch/ftm continuum in the 90s). Not because I don't think you can use masculine/feminine to describe personality.
I'm afraid the printed zine culture isn't coming back. For one thing, the postal system just doesn't work well enough anymore and postage is too expensive.... But I think something similar is re-emerging in digital form - look at substack magazines like The Distance!
Oh what a great episode of the pod! and so much to enjoy :-)
I have loved I Kissed A Girl (IKAG btw, you're welcome). I watched like a fan, fascinated by the language of these much younger-than-me women, as well as the to-ing and fro-ing of their relationships.... As so often tho, having new words doesn't mean something new has been created - 'pillow princess' may be a new-ish term, however back in the day a woman like that was known as a 'Do-Me Queen'. You can work it out.
And, I don't know who's going to break it to the delightful Georgia of IKAG (not me) but lesbians were not given the L at the start of LGB as some sort of reward for being kind to gay men with AIDS (yes, lots of lesbians were supportive, nursing and caring for gay friends, relatives, and strangers, as well as campaigning). Before that, feminist lesbians argued with gay men about the acronym, demanding that for once women came first (unlike other areas of speech = men and women, husband and wife, etc). So it was a result of lesbian feminist politics, not a gift for being nice. And I think, not the same in the USA as in the UK?? isn't it more often GLB in the States?
You mentioned the June Thomas book A Place of Our Own. I was at the launch in Edinburgh where June was in conversation with Alison Bechdel and I was truly disappointed. The focus is very much on USA 'queer women's spaces', and so doesn't have so much resonance, or interest, for me as a UK lesbian hoping to hear/read about our particular lesbian spaces. Plus, June made some clear statements about 'we all know that the idea of lesbian has changed, we all think differently about gender and sexuality now'; and 'women's land is dying/will die because they won't accept the inclusion of trans women and trans people'. June didn't seem to be aware that:
a) not everyone agrees that 'lesbian' is a broad category encompassing anyone who wants to be in it. Not everyone in the audience agreed, some did, but the chill was evident.
b) there's an inherent contradiction between what 'women's land' is about (aka single-sex spaces) and the suggestion that they should accept anyone to live there
c) lots of lesbians do have direct and recent experience of lesbian spaces disappearing - closing down, going underground, being changed into LGBT+ spaces. Or what she might call queer women's spaces. Many lesbians are experiencing this as loss, even if some are fine with it.
That's a long comment from me, and my only excuse is I'm trying to catch up with pod episodes! I need more sapphic traffic, and more of your very different laughs Julie and Kathleen xx
Thanks so much for posting Kathleen's article on Pride month! I've been wanting to read it since it appeared, but I am not a Times subscriber.
Count me -- a founder of (gay) pride in my community in 1991 -- among "lesbians ... ideologically excluded because of their antiquated beliefs about the importance of biological sex." Also, I am disgusted by the (largely male) sexualized exhibitionism that now defines and debases an event founded decades ago for the serious purpose of achieving equal rights and protections for gay women and men. If this were my actual child, I'd disown it, as it's too late to murder in the crib.
Re. 'zines: New Phazes in Colorado Springs, Colorado, 1980s and '90s. Maybe before, perhaps, after; that's just when I was involved. These ragtag publications -- produced by volunteers, copied and collated during pizza parties -- are worthy of remembering and honoring for the courage and connection they then represented. Thanks for shining a light their way.
I wish I could post pictures in the comments I could show you what all these old scenes look like. Because I have so many of them from the West Coast of the US.
I still have a copy or two of the RevRad newsletter! And distinctly remember conferences where Diet Coke was banned... but seriously, obesity is a health issue not a moral issue. Claiming it as a political identity is up there with asexuality. I've been thin, I've been fat, and that's between me and my knees.
Love the article about Pride month Kathleen. Spot on!
Ready with my glass of wine and favourite comfort food for my regular Friday night indulgence in sapphic traffic.
OMG those zines!! <3
On a diffetent note: the whole body positivity movement got so bastardized. I completely agree you both. What I think is the most messed up part, is all the false health claims. Like, it’s everybodies choice if they want to be overweight, but I absolutely despise the lies. I think it’s disgraceful that we are lying to women in the name of being kind to them. It is a health risk. And I should mention that I also despise diet culture, and all those insane diet hacks and all that crap that is just as harmful to women. What we should have is proper health and nutrition education and information, and everybody can decide themselves what do they want to do with it. I find it patronising, these kind lies. Beauty and weight has nothing to do with each other, but health and weight does. And it should be everybodies own choice to make an INFORMED decision on this.
There are parts of the body positivity movement that I love though, all those “instagram is not real” type of stuff, campaigning to show women that not having a flat belly is normal, that everybody has curves when they are sitting, that women use lighting and editing apps to look “perfect” etc, or other stuff, like educating that porn is not real, that diffetent labias are normal etc.
Wonderful podcast, as usual. The zines I remember are Sappho (70s), and Lysistrata (late70s/80s) Sappho came through the post in a plain brown wrapper, and the other one was available from the alternative bookshop and greengrocers in Durham, where I'd go to get Spare Rib, badges and soil covered potatoes. My word, those were the days!
I found myself somewhat guiltily watching 'I kissed A girl', with some trepidation ( hardly surprising, given the ten years we've just survived). It was, much to my surprise, completely engaging, and left me more hopeful for our young sisters than I have felt for some time. I loved the conversations about the word lesbian, and it was warming to see the love and support from the families (which you haven't seen yet, so I'll say no more). I'd been put off a bit by the fuss around Danni Minogue, tearfully 'coming out' as 'Queer in a weird way', which she later clarified as meaning she was straight! But, I'm so glad I persisted. It's fun, and sweet and encouraging.
Another fun thing about the disability rights movement is it's being co-opted by trans activists claiming that being trans is a form of disability. I suppose one can render oneself disabled by pursuing dangerous unnecessary medical treatments that damage the body. In the coming years, we're probably going to have an avalanche of disability claims relating to Lupron-induced osteoporosis. But merely claiming a novel set of pronouns doesn't render one disabled, and it's offensive to suggest otherwise. Maybe if one has severe gender dysphoria, it could be considered a disability, but that seems to be rare, or at least not nearly as common as trans-as-social-contagion.
I've also been increasingly coming across able-bodied people claiming they're disabled because of minor, normal variations in ability. Variations that don't prevent them from working, that don't require accommodations, that don't prevent them from accessing businesses and public places, that don't prevent them from driving or accessing public transit, etc. I guess they want to feel special, so they grab onto the label. This glib minimization of what it actually is to be disabled is harmful. The result is disabled people don't get what we need when resources are already extremely limited. If everyone is disabled, no one is, and we're back to square one.
This disability thing made me remember something. I’m from Hungary, and Eastern Europe is very big on agriculture, so much so, that they consider lactose intolerance a disability. I’m lactose intolerant, and hence I was eligible to claim tax relief for it :D And when I was under 18, I could use free / 90% discounted public transport :D However, Hungary is also not very PC, so they don’t call this disability, they use a word in hungarian that is best translated as “retarded”. I still to this day have a doctors note that confirms that I indeed do have lactose intolerance, and it states “the retarded state is permanent” 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 I had a plastic card issued by the govt with this :D
In 1996, I marched in Sydney's Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras and it was one of the happiest days of my life. It was still joyfully OK to be lesbian then 😊. In fact, it seemed like the whole of Sydney was lesbian and gay that day. We have pictures.
In 1998, my partner and I marched in Melbourne's much smaller Pride March when it was still unfetteredly OK to be lesbian.. I want to say that, whilst being lesbian has always been a precious, mostly private part of my life, it is not the only thing I'm proud of. It's not my whole identity 🤗
In the U.S. we have alternative phrases for "cock block." We use "taco blocko" or "clam jam." You're welcome.
clam jam omfg :DDD
Oh I just learned two new phrases😂
Another action-packed episode! Loved getting the inside track on Kathleen’s reference to “nagging and flagging” in that utterly brilliant and hilarious Times article—had to go back and read it a third time and laughed out loud all over again.
The academic article of the week pick was once again stellar. That this journal, “ Fat Studies, An Interdisciplinary Journal of Body Weight and Society” exists at all speaks volumes on its own about the sorry state of our times. That the abstract closes with a call “to protect the future of fatness,” without any apparent discussion of the impact of obesity on health, strikes me as completely in line with the anti-science, grievance-based, identity belief systems that also give us “gender affirming care.”
In this bizarro world in which we find ourselves, The Lesbian Podcast is an oasis of delight. Thank you both!
I can confirm the gay men went wild for Dannii last year (she would be the primary reason I’d go on the show!). I’ve really enjoyed the show this year and the lesbians definitely did a better job that gay men last year who were spent a lot of time assigning top or bottom roles to the group 🤣
In the Eighties I was a huge fan of alternative feminist cartoons (I'm dyslexic, I like pictures, not words) I still have a couple of copies of SourCream somewhere. My favourite remains Jo Nesbitt 'One day men will want your body for an exquisite plaything'
I remember the evolutionary scientist Stephen Jay Gould and his (unamed!) wife discussing the branding of intimate deodorants - working titles: FannyFresh and CockSure
I'm off to waste my life watching 'I kissed a Girl'
PS I treasure how well-referenced you podcasts are.
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10156540158683494&set=pcb.10156540166893494
I misremembered the quote 'Men will wish to use your body as an Exquisite Plaything'.
(note capitalisation)
Canadian link for I Kissed a Girl (it's on CTV) https://www.ctv.ca/shows/i-kissed-a-girl
Thank you. I’d given up looking.
I don't like masc/fem because they're the trans-spectrum version of butch/femme and I think it encourages you to think of it as a "gender" and on the continuum to "transmasc", which seems to be by far the most common use of "masc" (but alright that all started with the butch/ftm continuum in the 90s). Not because I don't think you can use masculine/feminine to describe personality.
I'm afraid the printed zine culture isn't coming back. For one thing, the postal system just doesn't work well enough anymore and postage is too expensive.... But I think something similar is re-emerging in digital form - look at substack magazines like The Distance!
Oh what a great episode of the pod! and so much to enjoy :-)
I have loved I Kissed A Girl (IKAG btw, you're welcome). I watched like a fan, fascinated by the language of these much younger-than-me women, as well as the to-ing and fro-ing of their relationships.... As so often tho, having new words doesn't mean something new has been created - 'pillow princess' may be a new-ish term, however back in the day a woman like that was known as a 'Do-Me Queen'. You can work it out.
And, I don't know who's going to break it to the delightful Georgia of IKAG (not me) but lesbians were not given the L at the start of LGB as some sort of reward for being kind to gay men with AIDS (yes, lots of lesbians were supportive, nursing and caring for gay friends, relatives, and strangers, as well as campaigning). Before that, feminist lesbians argued with gay men about the acronym, demanding that for once women came first (unlike other areas of speech = men and women, husband and wife, etc). So it was a result of lesbian feminist politics, not a gift for being nice. And I think, not the same in the USA as in the UK?? isn't it more often GLB in the States?
You mentioned the June Thomas book A Place of Our Own. I was at the launch in Edinburgh where June was in conversation with Alison Bechdel and I was truly disappointed. The focus is very much on USA 'queer women's spaces', and so doesn't have so much resonance, or interest, for me as a UK lesbian hoping to hear/read about our particular lesbian spaces. Plus, June made some clear statements about 'we all know that the idea of lesbian has changed, we all think differently about gender and sexuality now'; and 'women's land is dying/will die because they won't accept the inclusion of trans women and trans people'. June didn't seem to be aware that:
a) not everyone agrees that 'lesbian' is a broad category encompassing anyone who wants to be in it. Not everyone in the audience agreed, some did, but the chill was evident.
b) there's an inherent contradiction between what 'women's land' is about (aka single-sex spaces) and the suggestion that they should accept anyone to live there
c) lots of lesbians do have direct and recent experience of lesbian spaces disappearing - closing down, going underground, being changed into LGBT+ spaces. Or what she might call queer women's spaces. Many lesbians are experiencing this as loss, even if some are fine with it.
Re: zines - have a look at this website: https://liberatinghistories.org/periodicals-guide/
and the Women in Revolt exhibition has lots of actual feminist magazines as part of the show - now on in Edinburgh: https://www.nationalgalleries.org/exhibition/women-revolt-art-and-activism-uk-1970-1990
That's a long comment from me, and my only excuse is I'm trying to catch up with pod episodes! I need more sapphic traffic, and more of your very different laughs Julie and Kathleen xx
Thanks so much for posting Kathleen's article on Pride month! I've been wanting to read it since it appeared, but I am not a Times subscriber.
Count me -- a founder of (gay) pride in my community in 1991 -- among "lesbians ... ideologically excluded because of their antiquated beliefs about the importance of biological sex." Also, I am disgusted by the (largely male) sexualized exhibitionism that now defines and debases an event founded decades ago for the serious purpose of achieving equal rights and protections for gay women and men. If this were my actual child, I'd disown it, as it's too late to murder in the crib.
Re. 'zines: New Phazes in Colorado Springs, Colorado, 1980s and '90s. Maybe before, perhaps, after; that's just when I was involved. These ragtag publications -- produced by volunteers, copied and collated during pizza parties -- are worthy of remembering and honoring for the courage and connection they then represented. Thanks for shining a light their way.
I wish I could post pictures in the comments I could show you what all these old scenes look like. Because I have so many of them from the West Coast of the US.