I think that Cosmo article is shallow rubbish. Like Kath said, it is currently fashionable for CELEBRITY women to call themselves lesbians (or even for straight women pop stars to have some homoeroticism in their concerts or music videos, like Charli XCX and Sabrina Carpenter).
I think it was inevitable that celebrities and influencers start to specify they identify as lesbians rather than queer, because queer is now so popular and common, its cultural value has been diminished. It’s the same sort of phenomenon as influencers and celebs suddenly undoing their breast and BBL implants and wearing less makeup, adopting the “natural girl” look because nowadays so many ordinary women engage in fillers and Botox and some plastic surgeries.
I think among average young women (at least in my country) calling yourself queer isn’t a gateway to accepting yourself as a lesbian, it’s a gateway towards calling yourself non-binary or “transmasc”.
As we know, queer theory and gender identity ideology do the opposite of helping people make peace with who they really are!
We are on our second Subaru – it’s easy to get in & out of, which is better than trying to mimic various yoga positions with cars that sit lower. Fun historical advertising fact: Martina Navratilova was the original spokesperson for Subaru in the U.S.. Loved those commercials. Maybe she has some clips you could post.
Back in the dawn of time, this model of vehicle featured in a Lisa Alther novel. I remember my friend Helen looking up from reading it and asking, with the bewildered disdain of a High Court Judge, 'what's a Subaru?' Ha!
Kathleen: oh dear god, yes, please don't poison yourself and everyone you know with Lily of the Valley; wild garlic will achieve more positive outcomes. Julie: i reckon rabbit could work well, but don't write off pheasant till you've tried it this way - it's epic. I'm doing a variation on the ragu tomorrow, which i was excitedly telling a colleague about; her response was 'Venison ragu, my arse'. This has prompted me to fully embrace my Middle Class Wanker identity, and commit to the fight for a not-too-uncomfortable revolution. I suggest a suitable marching banner would be 'CLASS WAR NOW, PLEASE'. Thanks for another cheeringly enraged episode...
Is there any research on the topic of elevated testosterone in lesbians? I think it’s super interesting but I’ve never read anything about it either way. Only heard Kath speak about it.
See comment re neuroactive steroids positive allosteric modulator of GABA A receptor below. If lesbianism was due to high testosterone levels we would most likely have noted an association with polycystic ovarian syndrome, hirsutism etc. personally I think homosexuality is a neurodiversity composite and there’s no such thing as a neurotypical person. If you consider what the talents of high functioning autism/ADHD might be it then stands to reason that there would be an over representation of lesbians in sports, academia, music (music is best thought of as auditory maths in this context) and political activism. Could provide evidence but have probably bored you enough….
Think whatever the reasons for homosexuality in women there has to be room for a contribution from both nature and nurture. Hannah Barnes book does point towards there being an over representation of ADHD and autism amongst lesbians: this would previously have been overlooked as we are only just beginning to understand neurodivergence.
The overlap with autism makes perfect sense to me. We are a social species and need culture to survive. If everyone intuitively understood and conformed to the social order then culture would descend into habit and we would loose the social cohesion necessary for our survival. If nobody intuitively understood or conformed to the social order then culture would never arise as we would be unable to agree on any social conventions. If most people conform to cultural norms but some people are inherently socially nonconformist then we have a species capable of creating culture provided the nonconformists are always a minority population. The non conformists force the conformists to justify cultural conventions hence the social order evolves and is maintained. Evolution could produce this situation by overlapping the trait of autism (socially nonconformist) with homosexuality or asexuality (in this context asexual means not being at all interested in sex).
You haven’t bored me. Yeah that’s exactly what I’ve wondered - if lesbianism was due to higher than average testosterone, wouldn’t loads of lesbians experience PCOS and symptoms like hirituism… And what about all the straight women with PCOS and hirituism?
Also, even if it were discovered that a representative sample of lesbians had higher than average testosterone, how do we know if that is the cause of female homosexuality or if it’s an effect of female homosexuality? Or neither?
The only theory I’ve heard so far that seems convincing to me is the psychoanalytic theory of homosexuality (homosexuality is, like heterosexuality, like everything else about humans, the consequence of our attachment to our earliest caregivers and our early childhood development).
Biology is incredibly diverse so no wonder there is not a direct link established on testosterone issue. Prenatal exposure is another aspect and this certainly has varied impacts on developing fetus. The impacts will differ depending on whether the fetus has XX or XY chromosomes, but also the other myriad influences on fetal development. There are links with DSD and associated higher levels of testosterone and being lesbian. Biology likely has many routes to impacting sexuality and long may it continue :-)
Any association between DSD and homosexuality in females would demonstrate that in the vast majority of cases same sex attraction in women is not due to high testosterone levels. The virilization caused by high testosterone levels would present clinically (as in the case of some DSD) so clinicians would likely have noted some time ago that high testosterone levels are the cause of lesbianism. The high testosterone levels theory also implies that adrenal failure or bilateral adrenalectomies would either cure or prevent homosexuality in women which has never been noted to be the case to my knowledge. Differences in the sensitivity of neurones to sex steroids seems a more likely molecular mechanism to me if we are surmising about what such a mechanism might be…
I could be wrong, but I’ve still not seen any quality research to date that says there’s any biological basis to lesbianism. Maybe we will discover a pattern in the future. But I think the only plausible “cause” to date is the psychoanalytic one I mentioned above.
I find it annoying when people suggest there’s this dichotomy - either being a lesbian is something you can choose, or something innate and genetic. In my opinion no one chooses their sexual orientation, nor is there a genetic basis for it.
Fuming at the crass response of various public 'identities' to the Supreme Court ruling is a natural reaction. At least, you were soon laughing in today's podcast, and so were we. Thank you 🤗. There is a lezzer support web with you both, all over the globe.
I feel sick at times in this country when we see examples of the capture of Governments and institutions by transgenderism and then have to take time out or try for very small gains. People like you and other well known women's rights advocates are not able to do that so easily.
Lesbian voice? Ha! The very topic I was contemplating yesterday!I was in the Heals bit of Fenwicks
store in Newcastle .(It’s great,can’t afford anything it’s that kind of shopping).I overheard two women talking furniture, and before I saw them,I heard two lesbians! Dont ask me to analyse.Suffice it to say when I saw them they had skinny jeans,short hair leather jackets (as well as “lesbian voice” ) ha ha pity about the Subaru….
Also wanted to mention that all-wheel drive is different from 4-wheel drive. With all-wheel drive the wheels all work at the same pace and together, all-wheel drive is always on much like a vehicle with rear-wheel or front-wheel drive. 4-wheel drive, however, is only activated when needed and each wheel works independently from the others.
That Kathleen doesn’t speak with her Scottish accent 100% of the time is an absolute crime. She’s already stunning but when she code switched, wow! She should consider a full time switch. Why deny us listeners??
The Subaru thing is so true in the States! I wanted one for years, but didn't get mine (used Forester, manual transmission) until 2012, after a couple of pick-up trucks. (I'm a lesbian automotive stereotype.) Room in the hatch (or boot), high profile, no-nonsense appearance and all-wheel drive are all big sellers for lesbians, who are both more practical and have lower voices than straight women. :) I also like the sharper lines of older models, but then my first car was a three-on-the-tree Dodge Dart, affectionately referred to as "boxy baby" or "bland mobile."
A suggestion for the sexual identity of the week: Plural ((Plurality -or multiplicity- is the existence of multiple self-aware entities inside one physical brain). It's something between Trans and Multiple Personality Disorder (only they don't see it as a disorder).
So agree with comments on BBC. The BBC has been making me rage frequently over past year or two. The biased reporting has just continued to get worse and so annoying that many individuals still trust the BBC for "news"! Grrrrr!!!
I think that Cosmo article is shallow rubbish. Like Kath said, it is currently fashionable for CELEBRITY women to call themselves lesbians (or even for straight women pop stars to have some homoeroticism in their concerts or music videos, like Charli XCX and Sabrina Carpenter).
I think it was inevitable that celebrities and influencers start to specify they identify as lesbians rather than queer, because queer is now so popular and common, its cultural value has been diminished. It’s the same sort of phenomenon as influencers and celebs suddenly undoing their breast and BBL implants and wearing less makeup, adopting the “natural girl” look because nowadays so many ordinary women engage in fillers and Botox and some plastic surgeries.
I think among average young women (at least in my country) calling yourself queer isn’t a gateway to accepting yourself as a lesbian, it’s a gateway towards calling yourself non-binary or “transmasc”.
As we know, queer theory and gender identity ideology do the opposite of helping people make peace with who they really are!
We are on our second Subaru – it’s easy to get in & out of, which is better than trying to mimic various yoga positions with cars that sit lower. Fun historical advertising fact: Martina Navratilova was the original spokesperson for Subaru in the U.S.. Loved those commercials. Maybe she has some clips you could post.
Back in the dawn of time, this model of vehicle featured in a Lisa Alther novel. I remember my friend Helen looking up from reading it and asking, with the bewildered disdain of a High Court Judge, 'what's a Subaru?' Ha!
I loved those novels
Lily of the Valley leaves won't have the distinctive smell of wild garlic...
Kathleen: oh dear god, yes, please don't poison yourself and everyone you know with Lily of the Valley; wild garlic will achieve more positive outcomes. Julie: i reckon rabbit could work well, but don't write off pheasant till you've tried it this way - it's epic. I'm doing a variation on the ragu tomorrow, which i was excitedly telling a colleague about; her response was 'Venison ragu, my arse'. This has prompted me to fully embrace my Middle Class Wanker identity, and commit to the fight for a not-too-uncomfortable revolution. I suggest a suitable marching banner would be 'CLASS WAR NOW, PLEASE'. Thanks for another cheeringly enraged episode...
Is there any research on the topic of elevated testosterone in lesbians? I think it’s super interesting but I’ve never read anything about it either way. Only heard Kath speak about it.
Found this nicely succinct literature review:
https://blogs.bmj.com/bmjsrh/2020/06/30/hormones-lesbians/
and the full paper on here:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/341361051_Sex_Hormone_Levels_in_Lesbian_Bisexual_and_Heterosexual_Women_Systematic_Review_and_Exploratory_Meta-Analysis
See comment re neuroactive steroids positive allosteric modulator of GABA A receptor below. If lesbianism was due to high testosterone levels we would most likely have noted an association with polycystic ovarian syndrome, hirsutism etc. personally I think homosexuality is a neurodiversity composite and there’s no such thing as a neurotypical person. If you consider what the talents of high functioning autism/ADHD might be it then stands to reason that there would be an over representation of lesbians in sports, academia, music (music is best thought of as auditory maths in this context) and political activism. Could provide evidence but have probably bored you enough….
Think whatever the reasons for homosexuality in women there has to be room for a contribution from both nature and nurture. Hannah Barnes book does point towards there being an over representation of ADHD and autism amongst lesbians: this would previously have been overlooked as we are only just beginning to understand neurodivergence.
The overlap with autism makes perfect sense to me. We are a social species and need culture to survive. If everyone intuitively understood and conformed to the social order then culture would descend into habit and we would loose the social cohesion necessary for our survival. If nobody intuitively understood or conformed to the social order then culture would never arise as we would be unable to agree on any social conventions. If most people conform to cultural norms but some people are inherently socially nonconformist then we have a species capable of creating culture provided the nonconformists are always a minority population. The non conformists force the conformists to justify cultural conventions hence the social order evolves and is maintained. Evolution could produce this situation by overlapping the trait of autism (socially nonconformist) with homosexuality or asexuality (in this context asexual means not being at all interested in sex).
You haven’t bored me. Yeah that’s exactly what I’ve wondered - if lesbianism was due to higher than average testosterone, wouldn’t loads of lesbians experience PCOS and symptoms like hirituism… And what about all the straight women with PCOS and hirituism?
Also, even if it were discovered that a representative sample of lesbians had higher than average testosterone, how do we know if that is the cause of female homosexuality or if it’s an effect of female homosexuality? Or neither?
The only theory I’ve heard so far that seems convincing to me is the psychoanalytic theory of homosexuality (homosexuality is, like heterosexuality, like everything else about humans, the consequence of our attachment to our earliest caregivers and our early childhood development).
Could ask chatGPT
Biology is incredibly diverse so no wonder there is not a direct link established on testosterone issue. Prenatal exposure is another aspect and this certainly has varied impacts on developing fetus. The impacts will differ depending on whether the fetus has XX or XY chromosomes, but also the other myriad influences on fetal development. There are links with DSD and associated higher levels of testosterone and being lesbian. Biology likely has many routes to impacting sexuality and long may it continue :-)
Any association between DSD and homosexuality in females would demonstrate that in the vast majority of cases same sex attraction in women is not due to high testosterone levels. The virilization caused by high testosterone levels would present clinically (as in the case of some DSD) so clinicians would likely have noted some time ago that high testosterone levels are the cause of lesbianism. The high testosterone levels theory also implies that adrenal failure or bilateral adrenalectomies would either cure or prevent homosexuality in women which has never been noted to be the case to my knowledge. Differences in the sensitivity of neurones to sex steroids seems a more likely molecular mechanism to me if we are surmising about what such a mechanism might be…
You make such an excellent point Ruth!
I could be wrong, but I’ve still not seen any quality research to date that says there’s any biological basis to lesbianism. Maybe we will discover a pattern in the future. But I think the only plausible “cause” to date is the psychoanalytic one I mentioned above.
I find it annoying when people suggest there’s this dichotomy - either being a lesbian is something you can choose, or something innate and genetic. In my opinion no one chooses their sexual orientation, nor is there a genetic basis for it.
0:41 good mornings
10:38 recipes
13:27 late bloomers, lesbian sue
22:23 the "lesbian voice", sounding posh
33:00 Subarus
36:45 dilezza
Dear Julie and Kathleen,
Fuming at the crass response of various public 'identities' to the Supreme Court ruling is a natural reaction. At least, you were soon laughing in today's podcast, and so were we. Thank you 🤗. There is a lezzer support web with you both, all over the globe.
I feel sick at times in this country when we see examples of the capture of Governments and institutions by transgenderism and then have to take time out or try for very small gains. People like you and other well known women's rights advocates are not able to do that so easily.
A first year logic class in the Scottish accent, I’d pay for that.
Yeah, I would too actually.
Lesbian voice? Ha! The very topic I was contemplating yesterday!I was in the Heals bit of Fenwicks
store in Newcastle .(It’s great,can’t afford anything it’s that kind of shopping).I overheard two women talking furniture, and before I saw them,I heard two lesbians! Dont ask me to analyse.Suffice it to say when I saw them they had skinny jeans,short hair leather jackets (as well as “lesbian voice” ) ha ha pity about the Subaru….
No one should wear skinny jeans
Well, well, well. So you were hanging around the toon and didn’t let me know, eh? Enough said, I get the picture!
Just came here to say that I love your podcast!
Also wanted to mention that all-wheel drive is different from 4-wheel drive. With all-wheel drive the wheels all work at the same pace and together, all-wheel drive is always on much like a vehicle with rear-wheel or front-wheel drive. 4-wheel drive, however, is only activated when needed and each wheel works independently from the others.
Delighted to hear Kathleen's Scottish accent!
That Kathleen doesn’t speak with her Scottish accent 100% of the time is an absolute crime. She’s already stunning but when she code switched, wow! She should consider a full time switch. Why deny us listeners??
The Subaru thing is so true in the States! I wanted one for years, but didn't get mine (used Forester, manual transmission) until 2012, after a couple of pick-up trucks. (I'm a lesbian automotive stereotype.) Room in the hatch (or boot), high profile, no-nonsense appearance and all-wheel drive are all big sellers for lesbians, who are both more practical and have lower voices than straight women. :) I also like the sharper lines of older models, but then my first car was a three-on-the-tree Dodge Dart, affectionately referred to as "boxy baby" or "bland mobile."
Looking forward to Julie’s athletic high kick next episode :)
Great episode.
A suggestion for the sexual identity of the week: Plural ((Plurality -or multiplicity- is the existence of multiple self-aware entities inside one physical brain). It's something between Trans and Multiple Personality Disorder (only they don't see it as a disorder).
So agree with comments on BBC. The BBC has been making me rage frequently over past year or two. The biased reporting has just continued to get worse and so annoying that many individuals still trust the BBC for "news"! Grrrrr!!!