Fantastic episode. Really enjoyed the conversation - so valuable to hear experiences of lesbians from more conservative backgrounds. My thanks to Aaron - a lovely person.
I enjoyed listening to the interview. Aaron is a friend of mine. Like him, I was a dyke who medicalized 19 years ago for a similar reason: safety. I acknowledge my natal sex when important to the situation (ex. medical settings), but otherwise walk the planet looking like a man. Also, like Aaron, I have no regrets and no plan to detransition. And, I love my beard!
This is an aside, but I wanted to give a tip of the hat to you, Kathleen, for your calm, cool, collected handling of the conversation with Rebecca Tuvel at Cornell University. It struck me over and over again how much information you had to have--and did have--at your fingertips on the prisons issue that you were able to articulate with firm, cool directness right on the spot (no matter how loony the question was coming at you, I might add). Thank you so much--and to Julie also--for bringing your intelligence and perseverance to these issues.
I totally agree, Kathleen’s cool was amazing with the under informed Tuvel. But I have to say being dressed all in black like that, with the black leather belt and the silver buckle, made me recall the Jesuit priests from my Catholic girl’s school in the 1960s.😂😂😂 what a flashback, those dudes were very cool and I’m from a Jesuit family so I know.😂😂😂
Very interesting point Julie on feeling angry when one is mistaken for a boy as a little girl! I was always a very “boyish” girl, was swimming a lot, so had my hair cut short, played war with the boys etc, and I had (and still have) a deep coarse voice - and was very often mistaken for a boy - and I absolutely hated it! I just didn’t understand why would they think that I’m a boy. And as I grew up of course this was not an issue anymore, up until very recently. A few months ago a group of very passionate young women tried to kick me out of the female bathroom, thinking I’m a man mascarading as a woman. It absolutely broke my heart. And not because I felt horrible being mistaken as a man, but I just couldn’t help but notice how perfect of an example of going full circle in sexist stereotypes. The same traits I got bullied for as a little girl (because i wasn’t “ladylike”) now are making women uncomfortable because I’m not ladylike! It’s heartbreaking. Btw I completely understand those young women, and I was on the other hand so happy to see that they stood up for themselves, but just felt so profoundly how this bullshit has ruined everything I always stood up for, how we just returned to these stereotypes. It took a few years to erase decades of progress.
What an interesting episode! I was touched by Aaron's experience, and admire her courage in inviting god-awful amounts of abuse from transactivists by speaking honestly about it, and about herself as a medicalized butch lesbian.
I have always been turned off by both butch and femme presentations, viewing them as caricatured sex-role performances by lesbians unable to simply be themselves rather than stylized imitations of straight men and women. This interview with Aaron, and the article I'll link below -- Aaron writing at Gender Dysphoria Alliance -- has me thinking in a more nuanced way. I had not thought about the possible connection of a stone butch presentation with not just a sense of being a tomboy (which many of us experienced), but with full-blown old-school gender dysphoria (not ROGD).:
P.S. One sure sign of Aaron's femaleness is her desire -- appearing male -- to not upset girls and women by using restrooms designated for them. In this area and seemingly every other, trans-identified males (who almost always still look male) think only about what is good for them, not for the females their behavior affects.
So true, and it was that concern for others that I picked up on in a three-way discussion between the two Aarons and Buck Angel. They don't want to intentionally hurt women or girls.
A very sweet person and thoughtful interview. Thank you! I also loved the gentle pace of it.
About autoandrophilia: I think if you wanted to draw an analogy to autogynephilia, you‘d have to look at a straight woman (with a paraphilia) who is sexually aroused by the fantasy of being a man and seeks validation of it from gay men. A lesbian (butch) woman with autoandrophilia would not receive that authentic validation of maleness from lesbians. That makes it different from the role play and eroticism around the butch character in the lesbian world, though surely there might be grey areas and overlaps.
Whatever happens on Instagram is, I think, a glimpse into the depth of repression surrounding the female body (the liberation and joy of being shirtless and uncensored), certain codes that are celebrated as progressive (mastectomy scars, voice cracking from being on T), and the effects of social media on young people who are exposed to it way too much, leaving them dangling between contagious displays of narcissism and desperate exhibitionism.
So great to hear Ms Purdy's mentioned here - my old stomping grounds. Aaron and I have spoken about Ms P's as we unknowingly crossed paths there in the past. Hey Aaron - maybe we should call our upcoming Canadian lesbian membership club "the lesbian bar" (or Ms Purdy's)!
I once did a tour of Chicago lesbian bars when I was there (took a train from Winnipeg) for a film festival in the 90s - my girlfriend and I got to one place quite early and sat up at the bar with the bartender and were chatting with her. It was not a membership club but when a straight couple wandered in, the bartender just said "it's a $20 cover" and they left. Of course it wasn't a $20 cover for us.
Lovely episode. Some thoughts. In discussions like this it would be helpful to explore terminology. What is the difference btw a paraphilia and sexual orientation? Being a butch lesbian is not a paraphilia and yet it is constantly treated as such. There is a difference between embracing an inner aesthetic and feeling sexy/attractive to others as a result vs. creating an appearance because you are sexually attracted to yourself. Isn’t there? There is also a difference between a paraphilia and choosing to medicalize your masc traits to feel better and to feel safer. Thanks to Aaron for sharing his ever evolving awareness of self.
And finally, isn’t it about time for an episode on lesbian sexuality, eroticism and those lesbian feminists who reject lesbian eroticism as porn. I’m mean, come on, who in their right mind wouldn’t find that shot of Crawford and Lang in the barber’s chair hot as all get out! 😂
Wonderful conversation. Aaron is so thoughtful. I appreciate always hearing how she thinks a problem through. I hope you three are able to meet up in person in Lisbon, and that you might have Aaron on the podcast again—maybe an in person segment in Manitoba, who knows!
Another great episode, thank you. It was great to see and hear Aaron. I remember watching a YouTube podcast with the two Aaron’s and Buck Angel a couple of years ago and being struck by the realisation that I was clearly watching three women in discussion. Although they all pass as men visually, the way they spoke and interacted, and the concern they expressed for others just hit me as being typically female. I was reminded of this when Aaron said that he and his group of trans man friends really were just a group of lesbians when they got together to talk. Aaron‘s comment about their conversation not including misogynistic jokes was interesting. I met a young lesbian a few years back who had detransitioned after a couple of years on testosterone. She said that one of the things that made her realise that she was not male was her revulsion at the way young male students spoke about female students. Assuming she was male, her fellow university students did not censor there sexism in her presence. Meeting “out” lesbians at University made her realise that she was one of them.
I also found it interesting Aaron talking about growing up in Canada’s Bible belt. I don’t know if anyone has actually looked into this, but my impression is that a high percentage of those who adopt trans identity (excluding AGP) have a background in conservative and/or religious families and communities where homophobia is stronger.
Finally, some comments about lesbian space. Here in Australia we have a very dire situation from legal perspective. Lesbians have been sued by trans activists for attempting to hold events from which trans women are excluded. For at least 20 years this has meant that many gatherings are not advertised publicly, and one hears about them through word-of-mouth. Nonetheless, the development of Facebook networks for lesbians does provide an avenue for connection. I live in a regional part of Australia where there is a very strong queer community, but recently a group of us managed to organise a lesbian dance which was attended by 120 lesbians. We were careful not to indicate that trans women would not be welcome, but we labelled it as a lesbian women’s dance, and only spread the message through networks that primarily have women-born-women lesbians in them, and the trans women stayed away.
There is also a very successful lesbian Camping group (Van Dykes) which organises through Facebook. The group has almost 5000 members. Regular camps attract 100-200 lesbians who arrive from all over the country with their vans, tents, kayaks, fishing gear and dogs. A bit like that women’s community you discussed last week, but since the camps only last for 5-7 days there’s not enough time to turn toxic. 🤪
Loved the Chappell Roan discussion, one element I think is missing is that the song Good Luck, Babe! is about criticizing an ex who decided to hide her attraction to women and pursue heterosexual life. This generated a lot of discussion in the lesbian/bisexual women’s TikTok online communities.
Specifically there is a line that says “You’re nothing more than his wife” in the bridge that created a lot of discussion with many bisexual identified women insisting the song was about their experience of having their identity erased while in relationships with men. Lesbians on the other hand interpreted it as being about a closeted woman.
Also I thought the song Lunch is by Billie Eilish not Taylor Swift?
Would love to hear your thoughts on Renee Rapp, who has repeatedly said she is a lesbian and has to correct the media calling her bisexual or queer all the time. She and her girlfriend Towa Bird are idols of young lesbians and I believe have reduced the stigma around the word lesbian in the broader lgbt “queer” community. (I say from the ripe old age of 25, just old enough to be late to trends and learn of them through younger friends😅)
Marvellous episode. Aaron is right about Australia! There is a prohibition on women only lesbian events; the Australian Human Rights Commission says they are discriminatory and illegal.
I experienced what would now be called “gender dysphoria” as a child, and I put it entirely down to growing up in my country’s Bible Belt in a homophobic community where “lesbian” was a slur. 😪
I love you both but you got it so very very wrong on the music discussion! It's Billie Eilish that released Lunch and she recently came put as unapologetically "queer". Her recent interview with Rolling Stone is quite eye opening and very frank. Whatever you think of the label, I think it's very significant that one of the biggest current stars of today with many millions of fans can sing a song like Lunch and be pretty much universally praised for it.
Oh and err, if you want someone with an eye on The Culture to come on for these discussions, call me! 🤣
Ps if you discuss Billie on next weeks episode I'll forgive you both!
Fantastic episode. Really enjoyed the conversation - so valuable to hear experiences of lesbians from more conservative backgrounds. My thanks to Aaron - a lovely person.
I enjoyed listening to the interview. Aaron is a friend of mine. Like him, I was a dyke who medicalized 19 years ago for a similar reason: safety. I acknowledge my natal sex when important to the situation (ex. medical settings), but otherwise walk the planet looking like a man. Also, like Aaron, I have no regrets and no plan to detransition. And, I love my beard!
This is an aside, but I wanted to give a tip of the hat to you, Kathleen, for your calm, cool, collected handling of the conversation with Rebecca Tuvel at Cornell University. It struck me over and over again how much information you had to have--and did have--at your fingertips on the prisons issue that you were able to articulate with firm, cool directness right on the spot (no matter how loony the question was coming at you, I might add). Thank you so much--and to Julie also--for bringing your intelligence and perseverance to these issues.
I totally agree, Kathleen’s cool was amazing with the under informed Tuvel. But I have to say being dressed all in black like that, with the black leather belt and the silver buckle, made me recall the Jesuit priests from my Catholic girl’s school in the 1960s.😂😂😂 what a flashback, those dudes were very cool and I’m from a Jesuit family so I know.😂😂😂
😆😆😆
Very interesting point Julie on feeling angry when one is mistaken for a boy as a little girl! I was always a very “boyish” girl, was swimming a lot, so had my hair cut short, played war with the boys etc, and I had (and still have) a deep coarse voice - and was very often mistaken for a boy - and I absolutely hated it! I just didn’t understand why would they think that I’m a boy. And as I grew up of course this was not an issue anymore, up until very recently. A few months ago a group of very passionate young women tried to kick me out of the female bathroom, thinking I’m a man mascarading as a woman. It absolutely broke my heart. And not because I felt horrible being mistaken as a man, but I just couldn’t help but notice how perfect of an example of going full circle in sexist stereotypes. The same traits I got bullied for as a little girl (because i wasn’t “ladylike”) now are making women uncomfortable because I’m not ladylike! It’s heartbreaking. Btw I completely understand those young women, and I was on the other hand so happy to see that they stood up for themselves, but just felt so profoundly how this bullshit has ruined everything I always stood up for, how we just returned to these stereotypes. It took a few years to erase decades of progress.
What an interesting episode! I was touched by Aaron's experience, and admire her courage in inviting god-awful amounts of abuse from transactivists by speaking honestly about it, and about herself as a medicalized butch lesbian.
I have always been turned off by both butch and femme presentations, viewing them as caricatured sex-role performances by lesbians unable to simply be themselves rather than stylized imitations of straight men and women. This interview with Aaron, and the article I'll link below -- Aaron writing at Gender Dysphoria Alliance -- has me thinking in a more nuanced way. I had not thought about the possible connection of a stone butch presentation with not just a sense of being a tomboy (which many of us experienced), but with full-blown old-school gender dysphoria (not ROGD).:
https://www.genderdysphoriaalliance.com/post/when-we-were-butch
P.S. One sure sign of Aaron's femaleness is her desire -- appearing male -- to not upset girls and women by using restrooms designated for them. In this area and seemingly every other, trans-identified males (who almost always still look male) think only about what is good for them, not for the females their behavior affects.
So true, and it was that concern for others that I picked up on in a three-way discussion between the two Aarons and Buck Angel. They don't want to intentionally hurt women or girls.
A very sweet person and thoughtful interview. Thank you! I also loved the gentle pace of it.
About autoandrophilia: I think if you wanted to draw an analogy to autogynephilia, you‘d have to look at a straight woman (with a paraphilia) who is sexually aroused by the fantasy of being a man and seeks validation of it from gay men. A lesbian (butch) woman with autoandrophilia would not receive that authentic validation of maleness from lesbians. That makes it different from the role play and eroticism around the butch character in the lesbian world, though surely there might be grey areas and overlaps.
Whatever happens on Instagram is, I think, a glimpse into the depth of repression surrounding the female body (the liberation and joy of being shirtless and uncensored), certain codes that are celebrated as progressive (mastectomy scars, voice cracking from being on T), and the effects of social media on young people who are exposed to it way too much, leaving them dangling between contagious displays of narcissism and desperate exhibitionism.
So great to hear Ms Purdy's mentioned here - my old stomping grounds. Aaron and I have spoken about Ms P's as we unknowingly crossed paths there in the past. Hey Aaron - maybe we should call our upcoming Canadian lesbian membership club "the lesbian bar" (or Ms Purdy's)!
I once did a tour of Chicago lesbian bars when I was there (took a train from Winnipeg) for a film festival in the 90s - my girlfriend and I got to one place quite early and sat up at the bar with the bartender and were chatting with her. It was not a membership club but when a straight couple wandered in, the bartender just said "it's a $20 cover" and they left. Of course it wasn't a $20 cover for us.
Lovely episode. Some thoughts. In discussions like this it would be helpful to explore terminology. What is the difference btw a paraphilia and sexual orientation? Being a butch lesbian is not a paraphilia and yet it is constantly treated as such. There is a difference between embracing an inner aesthetic and feeling sexy/attractive to others as a result vs. creating an appearance because you are sexually attracted to yourself. Isn’t there? There is also a difference between a paraphilia and choosing to medicalize your masc traits to feel better and to feel safer. Thanks to Aaron for sharing his ever evolving awareness of self.
And finally, isn’t it about time for an episode on lesbian sexuality, eroticism and those lesbian feminists who reject lesbian eroticism as porn. I’m mean, come on, who in their right mind wouldn’t find that shot of Crawford and Lang in the barber’s chair hot as all get out! 😂
Very interesting episode. Aaron has a lot to offer to the discourse on
reidentified women. Thank you so much for hosting this importan topic and speaker.
Ms. Purdy’s! ♥️
As a fellow Manitoban, it’s such a trip when someone references places from Winnipeg. Great interview. Aaron has such keen insight.
Wonderful conversation. Aaron is so thoughtful. I appreciate always hearing how she thinks a problem through. I hope you three are able to meet up in person in Lisbon, and that you might have Aaron on the podcast again—maybe an in person segment in Manitoba, who knows!
Another great episode, thank you. It was great to see and hear Aaron. I remember watching a YouTube podcast with the two Aaron’s and Buck Angel a couple of years ago and being struck by the realisation that I was clearly watching three women in discussion. Although they all pass as men visually, the way they spoke and interacted, and the concern they expressed for others just hit me as being typically female. I was reminded of this when Aaron said that he and his group of trans man friends really were just a group of lesbians when they got together to talk. Aaron‘s comment about their conversation not including misogynistic jokes was interesting. I met a young lesbian a few years back who had detransitioned after a couple of years on testosterone. She said that one of the things that made her realise that she was not male was her revulsion at the way young male students spoke about female students. Assuming she was male, her fellow university students did not censor there sexism in her presence. Meeting “out” lesbians at University made her realise that she was one of them.
I also found it interesting Aaron talking about growing up in Canada’s Bible belt. I don’t know if anyone has actually looked into this, but my impression is that a high percentage of those who adopt trans identity (excluding AGP) have a background in conservative and/or religious families and communities where homophobia is stronger.
Finally, some comments about lesbian space. Here in Australia we have a very dire situation from legal perspective. Lesbians have been sued by trans activists for attempting to hold events from which trans women are excluded. For at least 20 years this has meant that many gatherings are not advertised publicly, and one hears about them through word-of-mouth. Nonetheless, the development of Facebook networks for lesbians does provide an avenue for connection. I live in a regional part of Australia where there is a very strong queer community, but recently a group of us managed to organise a lesbian dance which was attended by 120 lesbians. We were careful not to indicate that trans women would not be welcome, but we labelled it as a lesbian women’s dance, and only spread the message through networks that primarily have women-born-women lesbians in them, and the trans women stayed away.
There is also a very successful lesbian Camping group (Van Dykes) which organises through Facebook. The group has almost 5000 members. Regular camps attract 100-200 lesbians who arrive from all over the country with their vans, tents, kayaks, fishing gear and dogs. A bit like that women’s community you discussed last week, but since the camps only last for 5-7 days there’s not enough time to turn toxic. 🤪
Till next week, love to you both, and Aaron.
Loved the Chappell Roan discussion, one element I think is missing is that the song Good Luck, Babe! is about criticizing an ex who decided to hide her attraction to women and pursue heterosexual life. This generated a lot of discussion in the lesbian/bisexual women’s TikTok online communities.
Specifically there is a line that says “You’re nothing more than his wife” in the bridge that created a lot of discussion with many bisexual identified women insisting the song was about their experience of having their identity erased while in relationships with men. Lesbians on the other hand interpreted it as being about a closeted woman.
Also I thought the song Lunch is by Billie Eilish not Taylor Swift?
Would love to hear your thoughts on Renee Rapp, who has repeatedly said she is a lesbian and has to correct the media calling her bisexual or queer all the time. She and her girlfriend Towa Bird are idols of young lesbians and I believe have reduced the stigma around the word lesbian in the broader lgbt “queer” community. (I say from the ripe old age of 25, just old enough to be late to trends and learn of them through younger friends😅)
Most of the lesbians I’ve seen talking about Good Luck Babe interpret it as a song from a lesbians POV about a bisexual ex who left her for a man!
Marvellous episode. Aaron is right about Australia! There is a prohibition on women only lesbian events; the Australian Human Rights Commission says they are discriminatory and illegal.
I experienced what would now be called “gender dysphoria” as a child, and I put it entirely down to growing up in my country’s Bible Belt in a homophobic community where “lesbian” was a slur. 😪
What's happening in Lisbon, and when? I'm contemplating a trip to Portugal later this year.
It's the Genspect conference https://genspect.org/the-bigger-picture-lisbon/
Wow! I think I’m going to have to try to get there.
I love you both but you got it so very very wrong on the music discussion! It's Billie Eilish that released Lunch and she recently came put as unapologetically "queer". Her recent interview with Rolling Stone is quite eye opening and very frank. Whatever you think of the label, I think it's very significant that one of the biggest current stars of today with many millions of fans can sing a song like Lunch and be pretty much universally praised for it.
Oh and err, if you want someone with an eye on The Culture to come on for these discussions, call me! 🤣
Ps if you discuss Billie on next weeks episode I'll forgive you both!
We promise to do better, lol - we will be issuing a formal apology on next week's show